Nature, Innovation And The Shift In Climate Strategy (Podcast)

From NYCW to COP30, what's shaping the climate conversation?

New York Climate Week (NYCW) gave a clear signal that the climate conversation is shifting - from high-level ambition to practical action. In this podcast episode, Sustainability Partner Ben Stansfield and Graham Reeder reflect on key themes from NYCW and look ahead to COP30 in Belém, Brazil.

They explore topics likely to shape the agenda, including regenerative agriculture, circular design, and the developments influencing climate leadership. The conversation also highlights the growing focus on biodiversity, national climate plans, and how businesses can respond - by improving supply chain transparency, keeping pace with policy changes, and working together across sectors.

Whatever stage you're at in your sustainability journey, listen in to find out more about the developments and topics that are driving change.

Listen to the episode

TRANSCRIPT

Ben Stansfield: Hi, my name is Ben Stansfield, Sustainability Lawyer at Gowling WLG based in our London office, and today I am joined by Graham Reeder, an Environmental Lawyer based in our Toronto office.

In this podcast, Graham and I are going to chat about our experience at New York Climate Week. We were both there a couple of weeks ago and we are now in this period looking forward to COP30 being held in November in Belém in Brazil, so we are kind of in that period between Christmas and New Year where we are over one party and we are looking forward to the next festival.

All COPs have got their particular nuance or interest, and this one is going to be no different. It is the first COP since the new administration came into power in the US, so there are a lot of eyes on how the rest of the world comes together to keep that climate momentum, and it is also in a fairly remote part of the world. The Amazon is not particularly easy to get to, so there is a real question as to how many business representatives will attend. And these are topics we might well get on to a little later.

But Graham, let us first talk about New York Climate Week. What stood out for you as the themes?

Graham Reeder: Thank you for having me Ben. New York Climate Week was an interesting experience, for starters it was my first climate week of any city and I thought it was an interesting experience. The scale of it really stood out to me, it was quite large, spread out all over the city, there were events in the Bronx, Queens, in all five boroughs I think, and that most things were kind of concentrated in mid-town Manhattan – which is a pretty big area, even just that, Ben and I were running around the city in the July heat of September in New York – and I was really impressed by just the scale and scope of what was going on. There was kind of something for everyone I think which is pretty impressive. In terms of actual substantive key topics, I was struck by lots of stuff on nature and biodiversity, AI of course is a new theme that everyone is talking about in some way and in very different ways I think, and energy transition, it remains top of mind for everyone, and then another big one was kind of urban infrastructure, and I think that makes sense given that it is a city based event.

Ben: Yes, I think that is right. I think we are seeing, I mean carbon and obviously finance are at every conference right, and nature and biodiversity we are seeing as louder and louder and not so much as environmental goals but more as economic tools, you know; we should invest in natural capital because there is a return for investors plus climate benefits. But one thing struck me was just how much focus on regenerative agricultural and food production there was which I have not really seen at climate conferences before, and there was also a move away from climate grandstanding, so people seem to be talking and saying look obviously there is a political climate and, you know, we are conscious that we do not want to keep banging our climate drums so we are kind of cracking on and doing these projects now. We are not looking for headlines on the front pages of the newspapers or on the internet, we are just doing stuff, so that kind of moved from talking about ambition and publication and moving towards implementation and action I think was quite encouraging; but which of those themes or how much of that do you think flows into COP30?

Graham: Well hopefully the energy transition stuff I would hope, that remains kind of a major priority for the COPs at least, because that kind of stuff cannot happen without government work. I am also hopeful that some of the nature themes will be coming forward. I think we are past viewing climate in a silo right? We understand the climate is a force multiplier out there, we understand that it is interconnected with biodiversity, desertification, energy consumption. There is not really a sustainability issue that climate does not touch, so it is the environment we live in. So I do hope that these kinds of things are being considered and understood. I think when you get the kind of big COP years, maybe they kind of strip down the focus and have to focus on a few things that everyone can agree on. I do not think that this is going to be a big treaty signing year and so hopefully that is an opportunity for governments to be kind of chugging along on the work for everything to build that consensus for when you get to treaty years or big milestone years.

Ben: Yes, I think you are right and I agree with all of that. I think the whole nature and biodiversity thing I think will be... I mean it is obviously, I kind of think of the UNFCCC (United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change), you know, the carbon COPs as being much more focused on the emissions and carbon, and then there is the UNCBD (United Nations Convention on Biological Diversity) which is the convention on biological diversity COP which is focussing on biodiversity. And sometimes there is a bit of a blur and I can kind of see this COP30 addressing nature-based solutions and biodiversity more than perhaps a regular COP, not least because it is in the Amazon and not least because COP17 or the next biodiversity COP is not until next year, it is every two years isn't it? So, you can kind of see with that cycle missing the biodiversity COP and being in the Amazon that there is going to be a focus on that kind of stuff too, and I used to think it is the bit about climate change that lands most easily I think with the general public. Yes, so I think that is an obvious one.

I think there is obviously going to be focus on the NDCs (Nationally Determined Contributions), those national climate plans, you know the determined contributions. I think in September there was talk about having a 100 or so that have been submitted. I think they were due to be submitted in February this year in anticipation, so I think we should get a few more of those through. Then actually before this podcast I went online to look at the themes, it is almost embarrassing, it is an A to Z of everything, so you have got adaptations, cities infrastructure, water waste, local governments, bio economies, circular economies, science, technology, health, jobs, education culture, justice, human rights, information interpret workers, transformation costs, energy, industry, transport, trade, finance, carbon markets, non-CO2 gases, supporting a global push to triple renewable energy, double energy efficiency, forests, oceans, biodiversity, indigenous peoples, local and traditional communities, children, youth, small medium entrepreneurs, food agriculture, food systems, food security, fisheries and family farming. So, if there isn't something there that floats your boat...

Graham: Apologies for those listening on two-time speed. That was...

Ben: I remember I was at COP29 last year and I described it to people it is like an ESG conference, it is obviously carbon at the heart but because climate change impacts absolutely everything and obviously everything impacts climate change. You do just get, you can choose your own adventure, there is something for everyone at a COP. It is amazing!

Graham: Yeah, for a little bit of context I used to attend the COPs a number of years ago kind of between Copenhagen and Paris is when I was going frequently and going to some of the subsidiary body meetings in-between COPs as well in a previous career. It is striking that there are people from every different social movements, businesses, government representatives, ministers of trade are showing up. It is not just your environmental ministers or your foreign policy ministers it is cross-economy, cross-sector, cross-struggle for social movements. One of the social movements that really struck me was a Philippine social movement around debt called the jubilee... it was a jubilee anti debt and they started in the 90s around IMF debt and they are very involved in the COP space because carbon debt as a concept is something that they're working on and pushing. It would not seem totally obvious that a 90s global trade IMF debt international institution social movement would be active at the COPs but they absolutely are and it makes complete sense when you think about the scale and scope of what COPs are talking about and that laundry list.

It is a little concerning from a focus perspective but when you think about just how many different people and representatives, there is not going to be a treaty on every one of those things but it is useful to draw people in to be meeting and talking about it. Connecting back to New York Climate Week, there is a ton of parallel events going on that you might want to be going to three, four, five different events at the same time in Climate Week and you have to make choices, and that reflects the maturity of the client I think that reflects the maturity of the business community that it is not just a handful of people in one room sharing their ideas, there is enough of us that we can break up into sub-topics, we have been around for long enough. We can break into sub-topics, you have to make choices and no matter where you go there is going to be someone interesting sharing what they're doing and exchanging ideas and there is value in that.

Ben: Again, completely agree. What struck me at previous COPs that I have been to was the diversity of people, both in age, there were people in shorts and t-shirts who looked like they had just come from the beach, hanging out to full three-piece pinstripe suits and what have you and everything in-between and the variety of national dress was just an absolute delight to see as well. A real range of voices being heard and I particularly liked one area near the reception, that was kind of designated for protests with people with drums and chanting, demanding action.

That is probably quite a good time for us to move into what is a COP, because if you have been to a regular trade show and again, slightly different from New York Climate Week because you have your thousand events across all the different boroughs, albeit with some kind of focus around Midtown. COPs are really kind of intensely situated, so you have your two zones: you have got your blue zone which is where your decision makers and a lot of the leading businesses are; and then you have your green zone which is more like the trade show and it is a bit perhaps, certainly the ones that I went to, perhaps a little bit more cultural as to the local community and the country that is hosting it. But, in the blue zone, you had your big plenary halls, literally dozens of breakout rooms with signs and you had to have certain accreditations to get into them and I am sure back in the day you had the right badge, but I did not have the right badge. So I spent a lot of time in those side events, in the pavilions.

So you had, 70, 80, 100, loads of different countries had their own pavilions and certain organisations like OPEC, they had a pavilion too and you could, these were hubs, right? So you could have on any given day you might have five or six events, 100 seats in a mini sort of auditorium as part of this pavilion and people putting headphones on and talking about really fascinating issues. So even if you were not a policy maker or a representative from government you had the opportunity to take part in debate and obviously make various connections and share your learning, what you have been doing in the UK. So it was a real, sounds cliché, but a real sort of melting pot of different ideas and policy and what have you.

But it sounds like you have actually been in the room, Graham?

Graham: I have yes. When I was much younger than I am today. I was working with a couple of non-profits and some governments, particularly developing country governments, on adaptation issues and that involved me going and lending support to a number of different government delegations on what is now a pretty thriving infrastructure. But it was then a very new framework on climate change adaptation that was born out of the failures of the Copenhagen climate talks that folks kind of shifted their attention a little bit more to adaptation and thought OK, there is some real risk that we are going to have climate impacts here that we need to adapt to, we need to take these seriously, and the Cancun adaptation framework was set up at the COP in Cancun right after Copenhagen.

Now there is a fund, there is all kinds of technical bodies and advisory frameworks and adaptation is now a common place understood word where ten years ago it was not something most people had heard of, which I think reflects some of the good work they have done. And it is interesting many of the people who were negotiators from that time, some of them are still negotiators, some of them are now in the implementation, they are now implementing the frameworks they were helping set up, which I think is actually really great to see. Someone that I was working for is now with the global environment facility which is a huge environment fund that was created through the COP process but is a major source of funding for different emissions reductions and adaptation work in developing countries.

Ben: It is good to hear you still have friends in high places, Graham.

So one thing that often, well I used to ask and I have been asked myself, is why do businesses care about COPs because COPs are governmental international leaders of delegations from different governments around the world saying: What are we all going to do to come together and, how are we going to deal with climate change collectively? Or not? And so businesses are not in the room, right, they are in the pavilion, they are not necessarily debating in open forum. To me it sort of feels like you get that really strong sense of which way the wind is blowing, what the mood is like at policy level and therefore what as a big international business is going to be on your to do list in two or three years' time. So for example, last year we had a lot of discussion around Article 6 and international carbon mechanisms and what have you, so you got that sense OK, right, well this is happening, this is the progress, this is the trajectory, this is how I might fit in. Similarly if I am doing finance, you can kind of see that, it is almost an early heads up of what the business case is going to be for the investments that your business is going to need to make, right.

But I was surprised how accessible many members of various government delegations and leaders were to business. As I was walking around the blue zone pavilions, you saw ministers, you saw representatives from government departments who were flitting between the room and the real world, if you like. So I suppose that is one, I do not know if I am worried about it or concerned about it, I am certainly interested by it as to how many of those voices will be still in the room at COP30. I know there is some sort of pre-meetings and events which will be quite important in Sao Paulo in the week before, but it will be interesting to see how many businesses are, if not allowed to be in the room, are outside sort of holding up signs and whispering. So that is something I am going to be looking out for, I think when we are there.

So, I guess the final topic of conversation was around, for me anyway, was how businesses stay ahead of these developments. Obviously, we have talked about why they should be interested in what goes on at COP30, but how do they move ahead and how do they prioritise sustainability and nature as they move forward? My initial view is we have had a real flurry of questions and real focus from other clients on supply chains, how they are weaving sustainability into their supply chains. Whether that is in response to the CSDDD (the EU Corporate Sustainability Due Diligence Directive) the due diligence directive in Europe or whether it was a response to the Deforestation Regulations. It is knowing about what is in your supply chain, understanding how you can capture that data, how you can influence, how you can work with your suppliers to do that. Having taken the easy answer Graham, I am going to throw it to you for all the tricky stuff around what businesses can do.

Graham: I think it depends on your business. The most annoying answer really I can give is, it depends. As we saw at Climate Week and as we have seen before at COP, there are some businesses that are all about this stuff, they are attending these things because this is the bread and butter of what they do. I was learning about a business that was modelling weather prediction, creating advances in modelling weather prediction. That is a business that is about climate change. That is not every business. There are lots of businesses that have to pay attention to climate change because of the nature of their business model, but their business model is not about climate.

So whether you are a telecom, whether you are a manufacturer in the garment industry, there I think that the supply chain piece makes a lot sense. But I think one of the big things you need to be doing is talking to, whether it is your competitors or you allies, you need to be talking to people in your space, up and down your supply chain. You need to be having the conversations about how sustainability and biodiversity and climate are impacting your sector. You need to be having those conversations year-round, and COPs or climate weeks can be opportunities to bring those conversations together and to create a focal point. Somebody in your business needs to be thinking about these issues if you are going to stay ahead, because other business, we can guarantee that other businesses, your competitors, they are thinking about it, they are talking about it. Many people are thriving as a result of thinking about it and talking about it because they are staying on the cutting edge.

Ben: Yes, definitely the main takeaway from climate week was about how you turn this into a business opportunity. How you can save the world, make money and keep all of your stakeholders, no matter what political side of the coin they are on, happy.

Graham, I think that takes us to time. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and I am sure both of us send our good thoughts and best wishes to everyone who is going, especially those with the power to make some decisions that will benefit the rest of the globe. I am sure as COP30 progresses, we will be sharing our views.

Graham: Yes, we will be paying attention and staying part of the conversation. Thank you for having me.

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